Neo's Spectators

[DeepThought]

What really strikes me in the Matrix is how boring Neo would be without
seeing the Matrix from Neo's eyes. So, in the first movie, on the rooftops
of the Morpheus rescue, Neo dodges Agent Smith's bullets like a god. The
camera pans slowly, while bullets <schlunk> by like they are torpedoes
through molasses. But what did Trinity see?

Neo fell down, really really REALLY fast. Fell on his ass. Fast. Has
ass-falling reflexes like an ass-falling pro.

I mean, when Smith dodged Neo's bullets, we saw him twist and twirl really
quickly. As far as we've seen, only the people performing the slo-mo (and
the audience) see the bullet-time...

[JPM III]

Post by DeepThought
What really strikes me in the Matrix is how boring Neo would be without
seeing the Matrix from Neo's eyes. So, in the first movie, on the rooftops
of the Morpheus rescue, Neo dodges Agent Smith's bullets like a god. The
camera pans slowly, while bullets <schlunk> by like they are torpedoes
through molasses. But what did Trinity see?
Neo fell down, really really REALLY fast. Fell on his ass. Fast. Has
ass-falling reflexes like an ass-falling pro.
I mean, when Smith dodged Neo's bullets, we saw him twist and twirl really
quickly. As far as we've seen, only the people performing the slo-mo (and
the audience) see the bullet-time...

The slow-motion twisting and twirling that Neo went through when dodging
bullets on the roof are presumably similar to the movements that Agents make
when they're shot at. So my guess is that Neo looked a lot like a blurry
Agent dodging bullets.

I still want to know what it looks like when their avatars actually
materialize inside the Matrix. We've seen them get sucked back through the
phone, but what about when they appear out of thin air?

[DeepThought]

JPM III whipped out his/her/its Personal Electronic Thing, summoned a

Post by JPM III
The slow-motion twisting and twirling that Neo went through when
dodging bullets on the roof are presumably similar to the movements
that Agents make when they're shot at. So my guess is that Neo looked
a lot like a blurry Agent dodging bullets.

See, what the problem is, he didn't DODGE the bullets like Smith did, he
just fell backwards, out of the range of the bullets. So anyone watching
wouldn't see Neo dodge to the right, left, side-to-side; he just fell
backwards and landed on the ground.

Post by JPM III
I still want to know what it looks like when their avatars actually
materialize inside the Matrix. We've seen them get sucked back
through the phone, but what about when they appear out of thin air?

Presumably. They don't come OUT of the phone...

[JPM III]

Post by DeepThought

Post by JPM III
The slow-motion twisting and twirling that Neo went through when
dodging bullets on the roof are presumably similar to the movements
that Agents make when they're shot at. So my guess is that Neo looked
a lot like a blurry Agent dodging bullets.

See, what the problem is, he didn't DODGE the bullets like Smith did, he
just fell backwards, out of the range of the bullets. So anyone watching
wouldn't see Neo dodge to the right, left, side-to-side; he just fell
backwards and landed on the ground.

Trinity: "How did you do that? I've never seen anyone move that fast."

Presumably, Neo looked like one of the agents dodging the bullets when
viewed in real time. It was also his first time dodging bullets, and
probably his last, since the next time he stopped them.

Post by DeepThought

Post by JPM III
I still want to know what it looks like when their avatars actually
materialize inside the Matrix. We've seen them get sucked back
through the phone, but what about when they appear out of thin air?

Presumably. They don't come OUT of the phone...

Well, no, of course not. Like I said, they appear out of thin air. The phone
is just a way to access a particular location in the Matrix, which allows
the operator to load his crew safely near that location. He can't very well
just randomly insert them into the Matrix... The phone line is only an
access point for getting them in, and is the life line for getting them out.

I just want to see them materialize!

[JPM III]

Post by JPM III
I just want to see them materialize!

You can see Niobe and Ghost materialize from thin air a couple of times
in "Enter the Matrix".
They first appear in a white room which begins "loading" its "content"
(furniture, floors and ceilings,...) seconds after they arrive.

That reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask. Has anyone ripped
some of the FMV's from Enter the Matrix and posted them to the web? Not that
I need them, but I'd love to see them...

[Joe]

I can do the "Matrix Thing" as everyone likes to call it. Well at least a
modified version of it. I can bend back until im paralell with the ground
about 3 inches above it. And hold it there. I can also bend back and do the
arm swinging thing like he does. Of course I cannot perfectly replicate it.
He had strings to help him. If you really think about how the body can move
and how gravity works, he was dodging bullets. Of course it was his first
time so he couldn't do it very well, hence the not being able to pull
himself back up and falling on his ass.

[Joe]

Something to add....I would like to see ANYONE "just fall on their ass" like
he did. If he was just falling on his ass, that was the coolest stumbling
and falling I've ever seen.

Post by Joe
I can do the "Matrix Thing" as everyone likes to call it. Well at least a
modified version of it. I can bend back until im paralell with the ground
about 3 inches above it. And hold it there. I can also bend back and do the
arm swinging thing like he does. Of course I cannot perfectly replicate it.
He had strings to help him. If you really think about how the body can move
and how gravity works, he was dodging bullets. Of course it was his first
time so he couldn't do it very well, hence the not being able to pull
himself back up and falling on his ass.

[mikah]

From: Joe (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:49:23 GMT)
I can do the "Matrix Thing" as everyone likes to call it. Well at least a
modified version of it. I can bend back until im paralell with the ground
about 3 inches above it. And hold it there. I can also bend back and do the
arm swinging thing like he does. Of course I cannot perfectly replicate it.
He had strings to help him.

I want pics.

[Joe]

They have one on the tooth and nail website I'm told. They asked me to do it
about 5 times. The last time they took a picture and said they would put it
on the site.

Post by mikah

From: Joe (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:49:23 GMT)
I can do the "Matrix Thing" as everyone likes to call it. Well at least a
modified version of it. I can bend back until im paralell with the ground
about 3 inches above it. And hold it there. I can also bend back and do the
arm swinging thing like he does. Of course I cannot perfectly replicate it.
He had strings to help him.

I want pics.

[Joe]

They must have taken it off the site...I'm sure there is one at the Alive
Fest page though. If not I'll take one for you after I go shower.

Post by mikah

From: Joe (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:49:23 GMT)
I can do the "Matrix Thing" as everyone likes to call it. Well at least a
modified version of it. I can bend back until im paralell with the ground
about 3 inches above it. And hold it there. I can also bend back and do the
arm swinging thing like he does. Of course I cannot perfectly replicate it.
He had strings to help him.

I want pics.

[Joe]

How many people have seen Spiderman (the movie, haven't read the comics,

so

not sure about them)? I think that what neo does closely resembles Peter
Parkers "Spidey-Sense". In the movie, when he's about the get the s**t

kick

outta him, but he bends backwards and all that, the bloke throws the

punch,

and he steps back, looks side to side, etc. etc. I don't think that it

slows

down time at all for the person (not so much, anyways), they just become
more aware or what's around them. I think I've completely f**ked up the
point I was trying to make, my apologies. I'll go and think about it some
more, then come back to you.

As movies go, Spider-man was good. But to tell about Spider-man, it sucked.
If his powers weren't screwy, or if he moved differently in the movie than
the comic, then they were just plain wrong. He MADE his webshooters, they
weren't built in. Ben Parker died in his house being robbed. The burglar
didn't die that night. He went to prison and died during an encounter with
Spider-man later on (he meets Spidey and Spidey shows him who he is and the
burglar died. Either shoots himself, has a heart attack, or falls out a
window. I think it was heart attack.). There are also a few other small
things.

And now to the point. No spider-man's sense doesn't work like that. He gets
a tingling in the back of his head. Depending on what it is it can warn him
before the person even knows he is going to do anything. He can be warned
about gunfire before the person even pulls the gun out. He wouldn't dodge
bullets, we wouldn't;t even be there when the bullets are being shot. It was
so strong at one time that it could warn him before it started raining.

[Jason]

I preferred having his web-shooters be biological. I mean I am tired of
"Superheroes" who get their powers from technology (like Batman). I am not
impressed by someone who constructs a web-shooter. I am more impressed by
those who are genetically super-heroes. Like Neo. No one knows how he
became the One, he just is!

I think the movie was great. To be a verbatim translation of the comic
book would be extremely difficult. What they did was fine. Movie's or
cartoons shouldn't be verbatim tellings of what has already happened
in the comic book. Sure some things should remain true to the cannon
of the books. I agree that the movies spidies mutation web shooters is
apocryphal. But how and where Uncle Ben died and what happened to and
the nature of the person responsible for his death is irrelevant. The
point for spidey is that this impacts him in a way which turns him
into the vigilante crime fighter we all know and love.
And yeah spidey sense is almost a precognative factor. He can sense
there is danger, not only to himself but others in a near vicinity to
himself. He also has a rough idea from which direction it is coming. I
recall an article where one of the Spiderman writers likened it to the
hairs on spiders and flies that are sensitive to the air movement
around them and gives them warning that something is coming at them.
While spidey sense is actually alot more psychic than physical.
Anyway that's my 2cents worth.

Post by Joe
As movies go, Spider-man was good. But to tell about Spider-man, it sucked.
If his powers weren't screwy, or if he moved differently in the movie than
the comic, then they were just plain wrong. He MADE his webshooters, they
weren't built in. Ben Parker died in his house being robbed. The burglar
didn't die that night. He went to prison and died during an encounter with
Spider-man later on (he meets Spidey and Spidey shows him who he is and the
burglar died. Either shoots himself, has a heart attack, or falls out a
window. I think it was heart attack.). There are also a few other small
things.
And now to the point. No spider-man's sense doesn't work like that. He gets
a tingling in the back of his head. Depending on what it is it can warn him
before the person even knows he is going to do anything. He can be warned
about gunfire before the person even pulls the gun out. He wouldn't dodge
bullets, we wouldn't;t even be there when the bullets are being shot. It was
so strong at one time that it could warn him before it started raining.

[James Williams]

Well let me help you. The majority of superheroe types do derive their
powers from within. even if thier origins triggered the powers from
without.

Post by Jason
I preferred having his web-shooters be biological. I mean I am tired of
"Superheroes" who get their powers from technology (like Batman). I am not
impressed by someone who constructs a web-shooter. I am more impressed by
those who are genetically super-heroes. Like Neo. No one knows how he
became the One, he just is!

[Jason]

Jim, you are getting really weird lately....

Post by James Williams
Well let me help you. The majority of superheroe types do derive their
powers from within. even if thier origins triggered the powers from
without.

Post by Jason
I preferred having his web-shooters be biological. I mean I am tired of
"Superheroes" who get their powers from technology (like Batman). I am
not impressed by someone who constructs a web-shooter. I am more
impressed by those who are genetically super-heroes. Like Neo. No one
knows how he became the One, he just is!

[JPM III]

He was told that he would be, he was persuaded that he could be, and he was
convinced that he should be, and so he was, and it was good.

And that's the story of how Neo became the One.

Post by Jason
I preferred having his web-shooters be biological. I mean I am tired of
"Superheroes" who get their powers from technology (like Batman). I am not
impressed by someone who constructs a web-shooter. I am more impressed by
those who are genetically super-heroes. Like Neo. No one knows how he
became the One, he just is!

I think the movie was great. To be a verbatim translation of the comic
book would be extremely difficult. What they did was fine. Movie's or
cartoons shouldn't be verbatim tellings of what has already happened
in the comic book. Sure some things should remain true to the cannon
of the books. I agree that the movies spidies mutation web shooters is
apocryphal. But how and where Uncle Ben died and what happened to and
the nature of the person responsible for his death is irrelevant. The
point for spidey is that this impacts him in a way which turns him
into the vigilante crime fighter we all know and love.
And yeah spidey sense is almost a precognative factor. He can sense
there is danger, not only to himself but others in a near vicinity to
himself. He also has a rough idea from which direction it is coming. I
recall an article where one of the Spiderman writers likened it to the
hairs on spiders and flies that are sensitive to the air movement
around them and gives them warning that something is coming at them.
While spidey sense is actually alot more psychic than physical.
Anyway that's my 2cents worth.

[JPM III]

Post by Joe
As movies go, Spider-man was good. But to tell about Spider-man, it sucked.
If his powers weren't screwy, or if he moved differently in the movie than
the comic, then they were just plain wrong. He MADE his webshooters, they
weren't built in. Ben Parker died in his house being robbed. The burglar
didn't die that night. He went to prison and died during an encounter with
Spider-man later on (he meets Spidey and Spidey shows him who he is and the
burglar died. Either shoots himself, has a heart attack, or falls out a
window. I think it was heart attack.). There are also a few other small
things.

Very true on the inconsistencies, but for the purposes of cramming all that
story into one movie, it had to be shown that way onscreen. I think the idea
of genetic mutation and development of internal web shooters is better than
making them. Then again, the burglar story could have been told correctly,
or closer to it. Let the guy get arrested and go to prison, and then Parker
can exact his revenge in the sequel. :-)

[mikah]

From: Sandman (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:07:20 +0200)
It seems that for someone performing bullet time -

Avatars don't "perform" Bullet Time. Bullet Time refers to the camera
showing down the action so the audience can perceive it. The Avatars simply
"go faster". It is the difference between you walking across the street and
you running across the street at full speed. You don't "perform" a run. You
just run. You go faster. That's what they do. If we think about how fast a
bullet is, and we think about people moving faster than that, Bullet Time
just allows us to see it.

ones body moves extremely sluggish and slow, yet faster
than the surroundings, but ones mind 'thinks' faster than
this. Performing bullet time must feel like moving in water
or something like that. You think in real-time, but you can't
move as fast as you would like.

Nah. See above.

[Joe]

I agree...If he had just fallen down that fast he would have broken every
bone in his body. He dodged backwards, and then fell down from there.
]

Post by mikah
Avatars don't "perform" Bullet Time. Bullet Time refers to the camera
showing down the action so the audience can perceive it. The Avatars simply
"go faster". It is the difference between you walking across the street and
you running across the street at full speed. You don't "perform" a run. You
just run. You go faster. That's what they do. If we think about how fast a
bullet is, and we think about people moving faster than that, Bullet Time
just allows us to see it.

[mikah]

Post by mikah

From: Sandman (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:07:20 +0200)
It seems that for someone performing bullet time -

Avatars don't "perform" Bullet Time. Bullet Time refers
to the camera showing down the action so the audience can
perceive it. The Avatars simply "go faster".

From: Sandman (Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:44:47 +0200)
Anyway, I totally disagree. Neo has to sense things in a
different way in order to react as fast. It isn't a matter
of his reactions being faster or things like that - He is
altering his -perception- of the world to make him move
faster (and NOTICE things in time).

Bullet Time is what I described.

I have no problem with avatars needing to perceive things quicker in order
to react to them quicker, but that is not Bullet Time.

Post by mikah
It is the difference between you walking across the street
and you running across the street at full speed. You don't
"perform" a run.

My mind works at the same "speed" when I run or stand still -
I am claiming that Neo either slows down time, or bend time in
order to have the time to react.

I know what you're claiming, but I'm trying to point out to you why it
doesn't hold water. Let's think your statement through. The Oracle would
not have to leave because Neo could bend time and give them more time. He
wouldn't have to fight 100 Agent Smiths because he could just bend time and
go around and kill each one of them while they're stuck in an eternal
second. In fact, fighting would never be necessary. I think you're
misunderstanding what you're seeing.

Neo stops bullets not because he can bend time, but because he can interact
with the programs (subroutines) controlling those particular inanimate
objects. Like Smith trying to invade his program, he can stop them from
doing so.

Post by mikah
You just run. You go faster. That's what they do. If we think
about how fast a bullet is, and we think about people moving
faster than that, Bullet Time just allows us to see it.

Yes, but when Neo yells "Trinity, help!" he realizes that he is
not going to make it, but then he somehow manages to bend reality
in a way for him to be able to react in time. I don't think the
bullet time is as slow for him as it is for us, but I DO claim
time moves slower for him.

Time is time. It moves as it moves. Our perception of time somtimes
changes. An hour at the Dentist's office feels different than an hour at
Disneyland.

That said, Neo is like a baby learning to walk. Everything in him knows he
can't dodge a bullet. If a baby doesn't BELIEVE he can walk, he won't walk
-- no matter if the legs are capable or not. He simply won't try. At that
point, Neo has been told he can do things. The only thing that has kept him
from doing them is the programming he's been fed by the matrix. At that
point, push comes to shove and he tries to get away from the bullets. Since
he doesn't totally believe, he doesn't have total success, but since he
tried, he does have SOME success.

It has nothing to do with bending time. It has to do with Neo having speed
no one else posseses. That moment is also a realization moment for him. One
thing about these movies. With the exception of "I know Kung Fu," Neo
almost never seems as impressed with his abilities as those around him. If
I could suddenly dodge (and stop) bullets, I'd be impressed. :-)

One more example... If a car going 200 mph passes one going 100mph, the 100
mph car looks like it is going slow. In reality, it's going 100mph, the
same as if it weren't passed by a 200mph car. The Theory of Relativity
suggests that the perception of time slows down for a given person as he
goes faster. This isn't the same thing as bending time to your will.

OK, I'm done. Have at it. :)

[Sandman]

Anyway, I totally disagree. Neo has to sense things in a different way in
order to react as fast. It isn't a matter of his reactions being faster or
things like that - He is altering his -perception- of the world to make
him move faster (and NOTICE things in time).

I have no problem with [Neo] needing to perceive things quicker in order
to react to them quicker, but that is not Bullet Time.

If you want to apply your own unique definition to the phenomonon, that's fine
- just don't try to tell me what I can and can not call Bullet Time.

It is the difference between you walking across the street and you
running across the street at full speed. You don't "perform" a run.

My mind works at the same "speed" when I run or stand still - I am
claiming that Neo either slows down time, or bend time in order to have
the time to react.

I know what you're claiming, but I'm trying to point out to you why it
doesn't hold water. Let's think your statement through. The Oracle would not
have to leave because Neo could bend time and give them more time.

That is NOT what I am saying. Relax for a bi and listen to me - I am saying he
can bend time - for HIM, not time itself. He can percieve things -slower-. But
he is the only one affected by it.

I snipped the rest of your post since it deals with things I never said or
meant.

[Sandman]

| What really strikes me in the Matrix is how boring Neo would be without
| seeing the Matrix from Neo's eyes. So, in the first movie, on the rooftops
| of the Morpheus rescue, Neo dodges Agent Smith's bullets like a god. The
| camera pans slowly, while bullets <schlunk> by like they are torpedoes
| through molasses. But what did Trinity see?
|
| Neo fell down, really really REALLY fast. Fell on his ass. Fast. Has
| ass-falling reflexes like an ass-falling pro.
|
| I mean, when Smith dodged Neo's bullets, we saw him twist and twirl really
| quickly. As far as we've seen, only the people performing the slo-mo (and
| the audience) see the bullet-time...
How many people have seen Spiderman (the movie, haven't read the comics, so
not sure about them)? I think that what neo does closely resembles Peter
Parkers "Spidey-Sense". In the movie, when he's about the get the s**t kick
outta him, but he bends backwards and all that, the bloke throws the punch,
and he steps back, looks side to side, etc. etc. I don't think that it slows
down time at all for the person (not so much, anyways), they just become
more aware or what's around them. I think I've completely f**ked up the
point I was trying to make, my apologies. I'll go and think about it some
more, then come back to you.

But in spider-man, it's clear that time IS slower for peter parker in that
punch. He has the time to look at the arm up and down, which would require his
brain to sample information at a higher rate.

Let's put it this way. Normal film is played at 24 frames/second, this is
"real time". You play it at realtime speed and everything moves as it should.

But, what if your 'camera' - i.e. your mind, didn't 'record' at 24 fps? What if
it recorder events at 48 fps? Your precpetion would contain more frames and
when played in 24 fps, it would take twice as long - i.e move slower. This
would be stupid if it were on all the time, but what if Neo can 'speed up' his
mind, thus slowing down the world, for him, for a short period of time?

Alot of people believe that this is how, for example, flies percieve the world
- everything is in slow motion to them, which is why they manage to react so
fast when you want to swap them.

[Coz]

I'd go along with your post. I think the fps analogy is a good one.

Neo has no physical body in the matrix ('do you think that's air you're
breathing?') and I think some of his 'powers' are derived from his mental
ability (in this case the ability to think, and intruct his matrix body to
move, very quickly).

Having said that I don't think this is a matrix-only phenomenon. Has anyone
here ever been in a car crash and felt time move very slowly (I have) -
probably a defense mechanism to attempt to help your body react to exreme
danger. Also, has anyone looked at their watch to find the second hand
freezes for what seems like much longer than a second, before moving again
as normal. This is a known effect thought to happen when we first look at
things - our brain speeds up (and slows down time) to try to take in the new
stimulus.

Post by Sandman
Let's put it this way. Normal film is played at 24 frames/second, this is
"real time". You play it at realtime speed and everything moves as it should.
But, what if your 'camera' - i.e. your mind, didn't 'record' at 24 fps? What if
it recorder events at 48 fps? Your precpetion would contain more frames and
when played in 24 fps, it would take twice as long - i.e move slower. This
would be stupid if it were on all the time, but what if Neo can 'speed up' his
mind, thus slowing down the world, for him, for a short period of time?
Alot of people believe that this is how, for example, flies percieve the world
- everything is in slow motion to them, which is why they manage to react so
fast when you want to swap them.
--
Sandman[.net]