do we really have choices?

Do we really have a choice about anything or do we only react to stimuli? Do
I have the choice to go down the shop and buy some food or will the inputs
and stimuli to my body make me in order for me to stay fit and survive?

for example.
im hungry
--theres no food in the house
----to survive i must eat
------takeout? ==== is ordering takeout a choice?
-------i cant afford to eat takeout ===== (external stimuli) no choice,
have to goto shops
---------i must go down the shop and buy something.
-------i can afford to eat takeout
---------am i lazy enough to? ===== recieve information about your current
awakeness, energy level, weather conditions (all inputs) - no choice
-----------yes
-----------no

is everything, at its lowest level, just cause and effect? am i writing
this out of choice or have a number of things stimulated me in a way over
time to cause me to write this?




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[St.Nail]

Post by
Do we really have a choice about anything or do we only react to stimuli? Do
I have the choice to go down the shop and buy some food or will the inputs
and stimuli to my body make me in order for me to stay fit and survive?
for example.
im hungry
--theres no food in the house
----to survive i must eat
------takeout? ==== is ordering takeout a choice?
-------i cant afford to eat takeout ===== (external stimuli) no choice,
have to goto shops
---------i must go down the shop and buy something.
-------i can afford to eat takeout
---------am i lazy enough to? ===== recieve information about your current
awakeness, energy level, weather conditions (all inputs) - no choice
-----------yes
-----------no
is everything, at its lowest level, just cause and effect? am i writing
this out of choice or have a number of things stimulated me in a way over
time to cause me to write this?

Why go to a shop and buy food when there is no spoon?

use ur hands then

Post by St.Nail

Post by
Do we really have a choice about anything or do we only react to

stimuli?

Post by St.Nail
Do

Post by
I have the choice to go down the shop and buy some food or will the inputs
and stimuli to my body make me in order for me to stay fit and survive?
for example.
im hungry
--theres no food in the house
----to survive i must eat
------takeout? ==== is ordering takeout a choice?
-------i cant afford to eat takeout ===== (external stimuli) no choice,
have to goto shops
---------i must go down the shop and buy something.
-------i can afford to eat takeout
---------am i lazy enough to? ===== recieve information about your current
awakeness, energy level, weather conditions (all inputs) - no choice
-----------yes
-----------no
is everything, at its lowest level, just cause and effect? am i writing
this out of choice or have a number of things stimulated me in a way over
time to cause me to write this?

Why go to a shop and buy food when there is no spoon?

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---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

[JPM III]

I just did that for a sociology experiment. It was funny watching everyone's
reaction to me ignoring my table utensils as if they didn't exist. It will
be a good paper when I finish writing it.

Post by
use ur hands then

Post by St.Nail
Why go to a shop and buy food when there is no spoon?

[JPM III]

My answer is a fun one: yes AND no.

Human understanding can not comprehend the underlying forces and meanings
that drive nature and the physical universe, so our limited comprehension of
our world dictates that we must have free will, because really do make
decisions and nothing directly coerces us into making them a certain way.

BUT...

There is a rhyme and reason to the nature of the universe. The rules that
govern our universe govern every infinitesimal reaction and object within
it, including the tiniest and largest. We may not feel the forces of nature
acting on us, but they are always there, pushing at every level. They are
complex, multi-faceted, and too numerous to comprehend -- hence our
"understanding" of our free will.

However, if a mind were great enough to understand every individual force
and particle in the universe, then it would understand how to predict the
movement of everything else within it. The theory is that everything is
reducible to biology -- the human mind, no matter how complex it may seem,
is ultimately a product of evolution. Electrons firing across synapses in
the brain cause reactions that generate the observable effects of our
decisions, actions, and so on.

So biology governs free will governs human decision making.

Post by
Do we really have a choice about anything or do we only react to stimuli? Do
I have the choice to go down the shop and buy some food or will the inputs
and stimuli to my body make me in order for me to stay fit and survive?
for example.
im hungry
--theres no food in the house
----to survive i must eat
------takeout? ==== is ordering takeout a choice?
-------i cant afford to eat takeout ===== (external stimuli) no choice,
have to goto shops
---------i must go down the shop and buy something.
-------i can afford to eat takeout
---------am i lazy enough to? ===== recieve information about your current
awakeness, energy level, weather conditions (all inputs) - no choice
-----------yes
-----------no
is everything, at its lowest level, just cause and effect? am i writing
this out of choice or have a number of things stimulated me in a way over
time to cause me to write this?
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100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total

Privacy via Encryption =---

[Hyde]

Post by JPM III
My answer is a fun one: yes AND no.
Human understanding can not comprehend the underlying forces and meanings
that drive nature and the physical universe, so our limited comprehension of
our world dictates that we must have free will, because [we] really do make
decisions and nothing directly coerces us into making them a certain way.

I...think I'm following you...

Our limited comprehension of the underlying forces and meanings that
drive nature and the physical universe *misleads* us to believe that
we have free will.

Is that what you're trying to say?

Post by JPM III
BUT...
There is a rhyme and reason to the nature of the universe. The rules that
govern our universe govern every infinitesimal reaction and object within
it, including the tiniest and largest. We may not feel the forces of nature
acting on us, but they are always there, pushing at every level. They are
complex, multi-faceted, and too numerous to comprehend -- hence our
"understanding" of our free will.

Which is, of course, an illusion.

Post by JPM III
However, if a mind were great enough to understand every individual force
and particle in the universe, then it would understand how to predict the
movement of everything else within it.

That'd be God itself.

Post by JPM III
The theory is that everything is
reducible to biology -- the human mind, no matter how complex it may seem,
is ultimately a product of evolution. Electrons firing across synapses in
the brain cause reactions that generate the observable effects of our
decisions, actions, and so on.
So biology governs free will governs human decision making.

So, we are just biological machines.

I liked this post.


Hyde
-
========================================
"Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo…
so little time, so much to know!".
~ Jeremy Hillary Boop ~

[JPM III]

Post by Hyde

Post by JPM III
My answer is a fun one: yes AND no.
Human understanding can not comprehend the underlying forces and
meanings that drive nature and the physical universe, so our limited
comprehension of our world dictates that we must have free will,
because [we] really do make decisions and nothing directly coerces us
into making them a certain way.

I...think I'm following you...
Our limited comprehension of the underlying forces and meanings that
drive nature and the physical universe *misleads* us to believe that
we have free will.
Is that what you're trying to say?

It misleads us to to believe that we are in control. We *do* have free will,
but our will is not ultimately in control...

But you basically got what I was saying. Just not *exactly* the way I meant
it.

Post by Hyde

Post by JPM III
BUT...
There is a rhyme and reason to the nature of the universe. The rules
that govern our universe govern every infinitesimal reaction and object
within it, including the tiniest and largest. We may not feel the
forces of nature acting on us, but they are always there, pushing at
every level. They are complex, multi-faceted, and too numerous to
comprehend -- hence our "understanding" of our free will.

Which is, of course, an illusion.

Post by JPM III
However, if a mind were great enough to understand every individual
force and particle in the universe, then it would understand how to
predict the movement of everything else within it.

That'd be God itself.

So one would think. I don't know the true nature of god or whether god even
exists, so I don't make such assertions. I merely acknowledge possibilities
and unknowns. :-)

Post by Hyde

Post by JPM III
The theory is that everything is
reducible to biology -- the human mind, no matter how complex it may
seem, is ultimately a product of evolution. Electrons firing across
synapses in the brain cause reactions that generate the observable
effects of our decisions, actions, and so on.
So biology governs free will governs human decision making.

So, we are just biological machines.
I liked this post.

Thanks. I liked writing it. :-)

[Death Eater Dan]

Post by
Do we really have a choice about anything or do we only react to stimuli? Do
I have the choice to go down the shop and buy some food or will the inputs
and stimuli to my body make me in order for me to stay fit and survive?
for example.
im hungry
--theres no food in the house
----to survive i must eat
------takeout? ==== is ordering takeout a choice?
-------i cant afford to eat takeout ===== (external stimuli) no choice,
have to goto shops
---------i must go down the shop and buy something.
-------i can afford to eat takeout
---------am i lazy enough to? ===== recieve information about your current
awakeness, energy level, weather conditions (all inputs) - no choice
-----------yes
-----------no
is everything, at its lowest level, just cause and effect? am i writing
this out of choice or have a number of things stimulated me in a way over
time to cause me to write this?

The point of cause and effect is that nothing is Random. If you flip a coin
it could be heads or tails. If you knew everything about the enviroment, air
friction, weigth of coin, velocity etc. then you have the power to know the
effect from its causes. Those with the power to know all therefore avoid
randomness and can control everything.

We don't have a choice because if we understand the process of making the
choice then its not really a choice afterall. It's a predefinable outcome.
Choice is an illusion created because we do not know what causes us to do
something instead of something else. If we knew how the brain worked
exactally then we would be able to calculate the effect.

[JPM III]

Post by Death Eater Dan
The point of cause and effect is that nothing is Random. If you flip a
coin it could be heads or tails. If you knew everything about the
enviroment, air friction, weigth of coin, velocity etc. then you have the
power to know the effect from its causes. Those with the power to know
all therefore avoid randomness and can control everything.

Exactly. I remember when I was a kid... the first time I saw a Superman
movie or something like that, when Clark Kent (or someone) kicked a football
straight into the atmosphere, my next thought was: What would happen if he
could punt the football and know exactly the direction and magnitude of
force to put on the ball in order to get it to land a certain way, bounce a
certain way, etc... to stop exactly on the one yard line?

See, I'm a true geek, because I asked questions like that when I was ten,
and I didn't have a social life until I was 18. But I'm okay now, really. I
just... post here... all the... time.

Post by Death Eater Dan
We don't have a choice because if we understand the process of making the
choice then its not really a choice afterall.

Exactly. Our lack of complete understanding allows us the will to make our
own decisions. The closer we get to understanding the true nature of the
universe, the closer we get to destroying free will, and becoming god in a
manner of speaking.

Post by Death Eater Dan
It's a predefinable outcome.
Choice is an illusion created because we do not know what causes us to do
something instead of something else. If we knew how the brain worked
exactally then we would be able to calculate the effect.

And subsequently, choice would be an illusion, and with the knowledge of the
illusion life would become stagnant (sort of).

[St.Nail]

Post by JPM III

Post by Death Eater Dan
The point of cause and effect is that nothing is Random. If you flip a
coin it could be heads or tails. If you knew everything about the
enviroment, air friction, weigth of coin, velocity etc. then you have the
power to know the effect from its causes. Those with the power to know
all therefore avoid randomness and can control everything.

Exactly. I remember when I was a kid... the first time I saw a Superman
movie or something like that, when Clark Kent (or someone) kicked a football
straight into the atmosphere, my next thought was: What would happen if he
could punt the football and know exactly the direction and magnitude of
force to put on the ball in order to get it to land a certain way, bounce a
certain way, etc... to stop exactly on the one yard line?
See, I'm a true geek, because I asked questions like that when I was ten,
and I didn't have a social life until I was 18. But I'm okay now, really. I
just... post here... all the... time.

Post by Death Eater Dan
We don't have a choice because if we understand the process of making the
choice then its not really a choice afterall.

Exactly. Our lack of complete understanding allows us the will to make our
own decisions. The closer we get to understanding the true nature of the
universe, the closer we get to destroying free will, and becoming god in a
manner of speaking.

Post by Death Eater Dan
It's a predefinable outcome.
Choice is an illusion created because we do not know what causes us to do
something instead of something else. If we knew how the brain worked
exactally then we would be able to calculate the effect.

And subsequently, choice would be an illusion, and with the knowledge of the
illusion life would become stagnant (sort of).

Not to say that I'm MORE of a geek than JPM(wouldn't want to take away his
self given title..)but to back this question up a few billion years...I've
wondered that if you had a computer with enough power...and you knew the
spin, polartity and trajectory of every piece of matter at the moment of
the big bang....would you be able know all the possible outcomes up to and
including me typing this?

If all that we do is the product of electrical impulses, which I believe
I've read JPM postulate, then in theory we should be able to predict/know
all outcomes from the beginning of the universe....given the needed info.

But chaos reigns...

Nail

[JPM III]

Post by St.Nail
Not to say that I'm MORE of a geek than JPM(wouldn't want to take away his
self given title..)but to back this question up a few billion years...I've
wondered that if you had a computer with enough power...and you knew the
spin, polartity and trajectory of every piece of matter at the moment of
the big bang....would you be able know all the possible outcomes up to and
including me typing this?
If all that we do is the product of electrical impulses, which I believe
I've read JPM postulate, then in theory we should be able to predict/know
all outcomes from the beginning of the universe....given the needed info.
But chaos reigns...

You can be more of a geek if you want to be. I really don't mind!

But that's an interesting question as well.

And while it seems like chaos reigns, I don't think it does. I think it's
just a convenient scapegoat, a human defense mechanism resulting from our
excessive pride and refusal to accept that we simply don't/can't know the
governing nature of the universe.

[JPM III]

Post by Death Eater Dan
The point of cause and effect is that nothing is Random. If you flip a
coin it could be heads or tails. If you knew everything about the
enviroment, air friction, weigth of coin, velocity etc. then you have the
power to know the effect from its causes. Those with the power to know
all therefore avoid randomness and can control everything.
We don't have a choice because if we understand the process of making the
choice then its not really a choice afterall. It's a predefinable outcome.
Choice is an illusion created because we do not know what causes us to do
something instead of something else. If we knew how the brain worked
exactally then we would be able to calculate the effect.

I didn't say this in my other reply, but I meant to say your response was
amazing. It's almost exactly the way I think about it, but it's arranged so
simply to explain it in a way that I never thought of before. Good job, and
thanks!

[Morpheus]

Post by
is everything, at its lowest level, just cause and effect? am i writing
this out of choice or have a number of things stimulated me in a way over
time to cause me to write this?

I, for one, believe we do not have choices.

This is the same issue addressed in the Terminator trilogy. Look at
the end of T3. Look at John Connor's helpless expression when he
finally realizes that they *never* had a choice. Judgement Day was
*inevitable*, regardless of everything they did and went through to
stop it.

So, do we really have free-will? Is there really no fate but what we
make?

Or are our entire life's actions/reactions pre-programmed, just like
the machines...?


Hyde
-
========================================
"Ad hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo…
so little time, so much to know!".
~ Jeremy Hillary Boop ~

[steve]

Post by Morpheus

Post by
is everything, at its lowest level, just cause and effect? am i writing
this out of choice or have a number of things stimulated me in a way over
time to cause me to write this?

I, for one, believe we do not have choices.
This is the same issue addressed in the Terminator trilogy. Look at
the end of T3. Look at John Connor's helpless expression when he
finally realizes that they *never* had a choice. Judgement Day was
*inevitable*, regardless of everything they did and went through to
stop it.
So, do we really have free-will? Is there really no fate but what we
make?
Or are our entire life's actions/reactions pre-programmed, just like
the machines...?

Yes, and the reason why this question of free will keeps coming up
over and over is because most people simply don't like the answer. So
to ease their pain they make up some wacky bizarre concept. It's a
trap that even some otherwise very intelligent people can't seem to
escape.

This whole question of choice would of ended centuries ago if no one
cared that they were only "biological machines".

[MummyChunk]

Post by
Do we really have a choice about anything or do we only react to stimuli? Do
I have the choice to go down the shop and buy some food or will the inputs
and stimuli to my body make me in order for me to stay fit and survive?
for example.
im hungry
--theres no food in the house
----to survive i must eat
------takeout? ==== is ordering takeout a choice?
-------i cant afford to eat takeout ===== (external stimuli) no choice,
have to goto shops
---------i must go down the shop and buy something.
-------i can afford to eat takeout
---------am i lazy enough to? ===== recieve information about your current
awakeness, energy level, weather conditions (all inputs) - no choice
-----------yes
-----------no
is everything, at its lowest level, just cause and effect? am i writing
this out of choice or have a number of things stimulated me in a way over
time to cause me to write this?

Your 2003 post cuts straight to the core of what The Matrix trilogy was wrestling with - the illusion of choice versus the machinery of cause and effect. Back then, we were all debating whether Neo's path was truly his own or just another layer of the Architect's equations. Two decades later, with the benefit of Resurrections and modern neuroscience, your examples hold up eerily well.

Take your hunger scenario: what felt like a "choice" between cooking or takeout might indeed be a cascade of biological imperatives (low blood sugar), economic constraints (your bank balance), and environmental factors (weather affecting your laziness). The films hinted at this when the Architect revealed even the "One" was part of a cyclical system - your "decision" to post this may have been the inevitable result of every prior stimulus in your life, from reading philosophy to that morning's coffee crash.

But here's where it gets interesting. Resurrections (2021) introduced the idea that even within deterministic systems, small "anomalies" of awareness can create real agency. Your recognition that you're weighing inputs is the glitch in the formula. Like Neo seeing the code, the mere act of questioning "choice" creates a fork in the road - even if that questioning was itself "caused."

Modern brain science complicates this further. We now know decisions fire in our neurons before we're consciously aware of them... yet meditation/practice can reshape those neural pathways. So is free will just the system modifying itself? The Merovingian would sneer, but Sati's creations suggest even programs can dream beyond their code.

Maybe the real answer is in your post's structure: by mapping the "decision tree," you've already broken the cycle. The Matrix can simulate the menu, but you are the one who hesitates over it.


This is a response to the post seen at:
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=14714872#14714872